I was lucky enough to talk with both Jay Fox and Billy Fox of United Mutation by email in November / December 2001. The following piece has been edited together from a half-dozen or so emails sent during that time.

DFB: First of all, can you tell me a bit about how United Mutation started? Where exactly were you from? I know about the Georgetown clique, as well as people like Stabb who were coming from Maryland and the Sammich Records sub-scene in Northern Virginia, but what neighborhood gave us United Mutation? What other bands were around and how did they influence your style?

Jay: We all grew up in NOVA; the band was based out of my mom's house in Fairfax County. DSI was based in Dunn Loring, about a mile or so down the road. As for influences as to our style, the early stuff was influenced by us; we were learning how to play and kind of made up our own style. Of course other bands were doing the same thing at the same time elsewhere. I would say that as we got better we got more obscure musically. My own influences have always been American music first… SST Records, Alternative Tentacles, Touch and Go… those were the labels we listened to. Dischord of course, but we never looked to those bands for influence, just as peers. Maybe Teen Idles, as they really were learning at the same time as we were, but we never listened to any of those bands with the intention of copying their style.

Billy: UM was already together, and had gone through a couple drummers, when I joined in 1982. Despite our sharing last names, I'm not related to John and Jay; they can give the definitive answer to UM's genesis. But my understanding is the band sprang out of the brothers living together in the deep suburbs, spending their time listening to weird records, doing illegal things, and writing disturbing songs.

Mike Brown--who is now a prolific visual artist and DJ, had been going out there and jamming for a few years. He introduced me to the brothers, and I started going out to their rehearsals once a week. When Mike Salkind left the band, I was asked to step in. I'd been playing drums for all of six months, but for some reason they thought I could do the job.

After practice we'd sit around for hours listening to records. They occasionally played me tapes of pre-United Mutation songs. They leaned toward these absurd Zappa-esque epics. My favorite was an opera about a gerbil; it featured the all-time classic chorus "my mother was a hamster/my father was a rat/they climbed into a Chevy and they got down on their backs: I WAS THE FIRST GERBIL."

John and Jay were into the DC proto-punk scene, back when bands like the Razz and Slickee Boys were happening. So even though UM was a bunch of outsiders, the Fox brothers were into punk before many of the "name-recognition" guys.

DFB: Was there a certain record you heard or show you saw that made you want to start a punk rock band?

Billy: The first band I saw was Black Market Baby. Back then I was into all the Dischord stuff, Black Flag, DK's, Discharge. I bought every thrash record I could get my hands on, and went to practically every show in DC from about 1982 to 1986. So there wasn't one particular band or incident that got me thinking of playing that music. I was just immersed in thrash, trying to learn drums, and happened to hook up with UM.

Jay: The Ramones in 1978; they were on some Midnight Special type of show, and that made me want to be a punk. Then of course the Slickee Boys and the early DC punk scene was a huge influence, way more then Dischord. Limp records was a huge factor in the whole UM concept.

Half Japanese were also a major influence on me to play as they played such terrible music I figured we could be at least as bad as them.

DFB: What was the writing process like? Did a certain person bring in songs, or was it a group effort? Did the songwriting process change between the first and second EPs?

Billy: We all brought in lyrics, but as I recall John and Jay wrote all the music. They thus had the most emotional stock in the songs, which led to a brotherly fight most rehearsals. Mike and I would sit back and laugh, cause they'd get pretty damn heated. Jay's weapon of choice was his bass, held by the neck; John relied on his Clark's Desert boots and a karate kick.

As far as the lyrics, they're so garbled because Mike could never remember them, and just made noises whenever words failed him. For the Fugitive Family EP, John sat listening to the recording for hours, trying to transcribe what Mike had said.

Jay: All of our songs were written as a group; most were started by John, and most lyrics were by Mike. We were playing so much that things just happened and we went with them.

DFB: Where'd Mike get that voice? Do you know if he had heard stuff like SSD and DYS and taken influence that (assuming it was out by then), or did that come from someplace else? Lemmy perhaps?

Jay: Mike had never heard or was at all influenced by those bands. One, they were not available to be heard and two, he, or we, weren't listening to those bands for any kind of influences. Lemmy as a bass player for Hawkwind was an influence but not as a vocalist for Motorhead. Nope… Mikes voice was totally him; no one else was doing that at the time we started at least not in DC or on any vinyl we had.

DFB: "Lice, Flies, and Vermin" seems really different from the other tracks on Fugitive Family... it almost sounds like it could have been on Rainbow Person. What I'm particularly attracted to is the atmospheric quality; did you cultivate that on purpose? Did you try to build a United Mutation aesthetic, or what this just shooting from the hip?

Billy: That's the best song on the record, the one I play for friends who never heard me with UM. Part of the vibe comes from it being the last thing we recorded that day, in Don Zientara's old Inner Ear. I think we were just weary and punch-drunk, and went for broke. I remember looking out the window as we were recording it and seeing a few of the guys from Scream looking in at the mayhem and laughing. Maybe we were just rocking for them, cause that was one of our favorite bands.

During mixdown I remember John and Jay just wringing and twisting every knob on the console; if it was an effect, it was good. That's part of the reason for the dementia- factor of that cut.

The song reflects what our basement sessions sounded like. Psychedelia was always a huge influence on the UM sound, and we loved to stretch songs out and see how bizarre we could make them.

Jay: Lice and flies was written on acid.

We were dong what we knew best: fusing hardcore with acid rock. Rainbow Person was the culmination of this concept; it was all about us emulating Hawkwind as a DCHC band.

DFB: Billy, had the writing process for the second EP started before you left the band? Did that have anything to do with your split?

Billy: You know, I'm not sure, but I think there was some covert action! I'm close friends now with all the guys in UM, but back then I think I was a complete pain in the ass, and was a mediocre drummer to boot. So shortly after Fugitive Family came out, the rest of the band did the infamous routine of breaking up the band only to reform a few months later with a new, much better drummer, Steve Kirkland.

While I'm not sure when they started working on Rainbow Person, I gotta say it's by far the best thing they ever did. Kicking me out was the best move the band could've made at that time.

DFB: Obviously something clicked between the 1st EP and the second and you said: "hey, we don't have to play as loud and fast as possible all the time." What spurred that?

Jay: We had a completely different drummer with a whole new way of playing HC; we were moving into our own style of "psychedelic hardcore" not influenced, but creating. Not unlike the B-Hole's or some of the SST records bands of the era

DFB: Can you tell me a bit about the record labels you originally worked with, particularly DSI Records? I've seen their logo on a few other records, but I know virtually nothing about them.

Jay: DSI was our label; it was started by my brother John and Lee West (Always August). It was originally started to help out small bands in DC that Dischord couldn't or wouldn't put out. The first UM EP was paid for by DSI but endorsed by Dischord. The UM EP paid for the Death Piggy Love War EP, Malefice paid for their own EP but used the name, so on and so on.

Billy: DSI was started by Lee West, a friend of Mike Brown, and myself. We three went to T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria. He admired the band so much that he started the label and put the record out. Mike was hanging out with a few of the Dischord cats--which led to his playing drums in the short-lived Second Wind--so he was able to finagle the DSI/Dischord split of "Fugitive Family". I think it's the only 1/8 Dischord record (that's how much they admired us, I suppose). Rather than being numbered Dischord, say, 9 and a half, it's got some odd fraction, right? I don't have a copy handy to check the actual number.

Lee West lived in Richmond for several years in the 80s and 90s, and played in bands like Black Pyramid and Always August (on SST). The second DSI release was by Richmond's own Death Piggy. These days Lee is married, lives in the mountains southwest of Roanoke, is an agricultural scientist, and plays old-time Appalachian music.

DFB: It seems like UM always sort of coveted the lead guitar, even if the solos were always way more economical than your average metal band. Was there ever a time when you consciously decided to keep it as simple as possible, or when we listen to the songs chronologically, do we hear you growing as musicians? In other words, did you ever feel the need to hold yourself back in order to maintain a punk aesthetic?

Jay: The same answer applies to this question as the last. We were a psychedelic band, hence the guitars. John was influenced by Barry Melton (The Fish), Jorma, Jerry Garcia, all those San Francisco acid rock bands. That's the guitar sound; listen to "Electric Music for the Mind and Body" (Country Joe and the Fish), that's the sound. As far as economy, we Jam econo. That was the name of the game, listen to DBoon.

Obviously we got better as time went on; in '81 we didn't know how to play, by '84 we had been playing 5 nights a week, every week. We were a band not just a group.

Hold ourselves back? Never.

DFB: The sounds on Rainbow Person all sound so distinct; was that a conscious decision? Do you feel it lost any of the cohesiveness of the band's sound?

Jay: Rainbow Person was our first real record; it was written to be a record, not just a collection of pieces. We recorded 13 songs with that session and released 5 on the disc. It still stands the test of time today. Fugitive Family doesn't as well.

DFB: Why did you put those vocal samples all through Rainbow Person on the Bitzcore LP? Were they conceived with the original vinyl, or is that something you came up with later?

Jay: Samples? Those were interviews with a homeless guy; he set the whole story in motion, he was there with the Pirates.... Aliens.... The truth is OUT there...

DFB: I really enjoyed the song with the horns on the Bitzcore LP? Who is Brian Marzullo, and did he join you often?

Jay: "Sensations Fix...." It was an outtake for Rainbow Person. It was originally released on the WGNS records comp, ALIVE AND KICKING. We overproduced the shit out of it to blow eveyone's mind; it was supposed to be more insane then "Lice and Flies." I think it could be....

Brian is just a guy we knew from the 'burbs; he's still around somewhere.

DFB: Were the live performances generally as loose and spirited as the Bitzcore CD represents? It's amazing to hear the band playing so tightly, but the singer just going nuts... was that just his personality?

Jay: Live? We just winged it like all bands, Mike was in the air most nights so he was just trying to breathe let alone put words to songs. It's amazing he didn't break his neck.

We were not a big live band; we had a lot of issues with live shows. We did a bunch but it was a lot of work to get them done.

DFB: Billy, what did you think of UM's live show?

Billy: This is the funniest question--we almost never fucking played out, unless you count having a few freaks sitting around checking out rehearsals. When I was in the band, we played the 9:30 once, on a Sunday matinee, which I think was a Mixed Nuts Don't Crack showcase. Very few people attended. I think we might have also done a party or something.

They did several shows after I was out of the band. I caught as many as I could--a couple at Wilson Center, one at WUST. At that time, I felt the songs were much more adventurous than what most thrash bands were doing. The only thing I could compare it to is Void. I think people in DC were starting to recognize the band's uniqueness, but were afraid of what their neighbors might think, since UM didn't have the official seal of approval.

DFB: Can you tell me a little bit about how and why United Mutation ended?

Jay: UM has never really ended. We put a stop to it a few times mostly due to fans fucking up shows, us wanting to play music, not just HC… We started BULLHEAD, which featured all the same members but didn't have the reputation of UM to get away from all the BS that was trapping us as UM. We all still have played the songs in the past few years, and have recorded new and redone tracks since. We all still love the stuff but have moved into other things. The stuff may still surface again who knows.

DFB: Tell me a bit about your licensing deals for the UM material? Who currently owns the rights? Why has this material been reissued twice in Germany, but not in America?

Jay: We own the rights to our songs; the Germans wanted to put it out and we let them. As far as releasing them stateside, we don't have the cash to do it so....

DFB: Did you have any problems with Lost and Found? They're notorious for not paying bands, and for putting out bootlegs... were you aware of this reputation, and if so why did you decide to go with them anyway?

Jay: L&f have been fully authorized to release the stuff; they contacted Bitzcore and us, and both went ahead. They have given us copies of everything, and have been totally cool. No complaints except they didn't like the "hippie art" on Freaks Out, and probably wish we had more PUSHEAD art to give them.

The majority of the bands complaining should probably be happy anybody even remembers who the fuck they are, and be happy someone wants to listen let alone put their stuff out.

DFB: Did you ever hear the Misfits? What did you think?

Jay: I love the MISFITS!!! duh!!!

Billy: I saw the Misfits once, at the Wilson Center. I can't remember who else was on the bill...maybe 45 Grave, but I might be mixing up shows. I remember being underwhelmed by the Misfits, and recall that most of the punks went outside during their set. DC just was not into that band. But I stuck around to ogle the proto-Goth chicks who were creaming up front. Funny, back then they called it "creepy crawl".

I appreciate that sound a lot more now, but when I was a teenager I preferred more, uh, blue collar sorta punk.

DFB: Jay, you mentioned in an earlier email that you felt a bit slighted by your exclusion from Mark Anderson's book, Dance of Days (click here for our review - ed). You also mentioned you spoke to him about it; how did that conversation go? Did you get an explanation?

Jay: We felt slagged by the "Book," no mention. Whatever, our name UNITED MUTATION has 14 letters - how hard is that to fit in? Poser crap. Period.

DFB: Have you read the book, Billy?

Billy: I only read the Bad Brains chapter, because it was excerpted in the Washington City Paper. I thought it was thrilling and enlightening.

I'm not a bit surprised that UM wasn't mentioned. Face it, we were not cool. We weren't hated, we were just not considered "in". Punk, as liberating as it can be, also is as clique-ish and popularity-driven as any social group. In a way, it's no more open-minded than your average high school.

The omission is a shame though. The band was around for years, has several records, quite a few fans. Jello Biafra once listed us as one of his fave groups--what more do you need?

I don't wanna get controversial here, but I will say I remember things about DC a lot differently than they have been chronicled in books and articles, or canonized in the popular consciousness. I haven't read the book, so I'm not accusing it of obscuring truth, but I think in broader terms, much of DC hardcore's history has been rewritten.

DFB: Tell me a bit about your life right now.

Billy: I live in NYC, and I'm wrapping up a second degree in music, at the New School. I figured having a history degree would not guarantee my future on skid row, so I opted for a music degree as the surest route there. I'm considering going for an MFA in music composition.

I play drums and percussion semi-professionally. Right now I mainly play traditional Cuban music and jazz, and I've been trying to get some rockabilly/redneck jazz projects off the ground.

Jay: This past year half of UM and Bullhead started a band doing what we love: Hawkwind. This band rocked so hard. Lots of fun, no attitudes, just pure space punk. It may happen again. Hawkwind were always a major influence on UM/Bullhead.

Right now I'm living and working on Ross Island. I run the general store in McMurdo Station. Its a research station about 70 miles off the coast of Antarctica (look on a map, or go to NSF.ORG Polar Programs, you can find all sorts of info). I've been doing this off and on since '95. At the moment I'm playing in 3 bands and backing Henry Kaiser (guitar god) in his grant project. The scene is pretty amazing; we've got 3 bands playing this weekend, and on the 30th of Dec the big ICESTOCK music festival will happen. It's a strange thing but it is a trip for sure.

McMurdo Station is a scientific research station built in the '50's to promote study of the Antarctic. Now it's the logistical hub for most US and other countries doing research in the Ross Sea region. The station at peak (now) season has about 1000 people in or around it. We have our closest neighbors, New Zealand, down the road 2 miles away at Scott Base. Tonight, Thursday, is a US theme night, meaning if you want to go over and hang out in their bar you can. They come and go as they please in McM. As for other countries the closest is the Italians up at Terra Nova Bay (200 miles north).

DFB: Can you tell me a bit more about that?

Jay: Being an American base we have a lot happening: there are 3 bars in town (100 buildings makes up town), bowling, gyms, and all kinds of other activities. This weekend the Helo crew are sponsoring their annual Helo Hanger Party (3 bands playing, dancing, BBQ, etc.) It's always a trip, good food, etc.

I'm playing in 3 bands at the moment (what can I say I love to play...) plus backing Henry Kaiser in his little grantee project band. Very cool. The music scene is pretty vibrant:1 practice space is available, so its sometimes hard to get things done. As of right now we have about 7 groups playing, not counting Henry, and who knows how many will spring up between now and Icestock.

Icestock is the annual Chili cookoff/music festival. Its been going on for 14/15 years. Always "The" event of the summer. There are usually 10 groups of Chili cookers (the Firehouse almost always wins) and usually about 15 musical acts play, ranging from folk to bluegrass to hardcore. It all depends on the performers available. Lots of fun.

Otherwise this place is kind of like a work camp/campus/military base. We sit location wise off the coast of Antarctica. The view is amazing; the Royal Society Range is about 70 miles away and does dominate our view. Ross Island is made up of 3 volcanos: Erebus, Terror, and TerraNova. Erebus is the largest one still active and controls the environment. The scenery is unbelievable and hard to explain. The area was the base camp for almost all exploration in the turn of the century (Robert F. Scott, Shackelton, etc. all were based here, their original huts and stations are all still her). The weather has been fantastic so far this season: blue skies, very little snow, and low winds (temps range from -30f,to 35F). This past week has been very warm for Antarctica; we're experiencing a lot of melting. So town is a muddy mess, but its great.

The job scene is the same as anywhere else: lots of work goes into supporting science. I run the general store (this is my third year doing this particular job). It's kind of like 7-11/a liquor store/Wallmart/souvenir shop all rolled into one. Kind of cool. I have 2 women who work with me, both real cool, and we spend our day listening to tunes, talking to friends, and taking in cash. Not too bad for a days work.

In general this is almost a Utopian environment: no war, no fighting, no drugs, no discrimination, and all people are equal as far as job status. It's really a nice change of pace from the real world. Everything is paid for, plus you get a paycheck.

DFB: Do you still listen to any punk bands? What bands do you listen to? Do you still feel like punk has vibrancy?

Billy: I still love Iggy Pop, the Sex Pistols, MC5...that stuff really stands the test of time. The only band that I still listen to that was a contemporary of UM is Rudimentary Peni, and I think their first few releases are mega-classics, just shy of genius.

I had to sell all my records in the mid-80s; most of it I don't miss, but I do wish I still had the Void/Faith 12", some Bad Brains, Meat Puppets, and Discharge. Every once in awhile I'd like to toss that stuff on, but not bad enough to go out and buy it.

I couldn't say if punk has vibrancy or not. I'm just too outta touch with the scene. I'm really ignorant of what's going on right now.

I have rockabilly friends who sneer at jazz, and at my school, which is a heavy jazz conservatory, most of my classmates snicker at country and pop. But the music I listen to is not restricted by time, place, or genre. I just don't buy into compartmentalizing music. I'll switch from Hank Williams to Thelonious Monk to Motorhead in a heartbeat.

Heavy rotation right now is: Ray Price, Dock Boggs, Gillian Welch, Schumann, Debussy, Blind Willie Johnson, Jimmy Bosch, Tito Rodriquez, Led Zeppelin, Bill Stewart, and some compilations of Eastern European music.

Jay: As for Punk bands.... I love punk rock; I've been a fulltime punk since '78 when I first heard the Ramones. As for bands I listen to... I listen to all kinds of stuff, I'm still into the old school stuff: Fugazi, Sonic Youth, Watt. Most of the new stuff I've probably missed, due to being out of the country. I mostly listen to friends/peers bands. So I don't know... Punk does have a lot of vibrancy; the biggest issue is that the small bands have to be good to get a show, instead of when we were coming up all you needed was a band. I do believe there should be a punk band on every block because there can be.

DFB: Anything else:

Billy: If anybody wants to bug me they can write me at Astrabrat@hotmail.com